Thursday, July 24, 2008
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Can Women Be Church Leaders?
Christie started a thread in our forum about women and church leadership. She says, "My church has women pastors/leaders in it, and I was wondering if that was biblically wrong."Some people cited 1 Timothy 2:11-14 ("A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man"), others argue that the verse should be interpreted in accordance with the culture at the time. Still others say that the verse isn't about leadership at all, but rather about church etiquette.
How do you feel about women choosing to be ministers? Does your church have female pastors or women in high leadership positions?
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Comments (133)
Wayne Grudem and other respected leaders have tackled this subject.
http://www.cbmw.org/
SUCH ACTIVITY IS ONE VERY MUCH ABOUT PERSPECTIVE.
THERE ARE PRACTICING HOMOSEXUAL CATHOLIC PRIESTS,
SOOOOOOO, WHAT'S THE HANG-UP?
DIFFERENT BODY PARTS? WASN'T RELIGION WERE BASED
ON FAITH AND SPIRIT, NOT GENDER - life is, deal.
bet there aren't many female pedophiles
I'm studying to be a youth pastor right now. I believe that woman can be Pastors. I have known some amazing, powerful, and anointed female Pastors. I do believe a Senior Pastor should be male. Just as the husband in the head of the household, I believe the church should be the same way. However, my Pastor's wife works hand in hand with him, and we also consider her a senior Pastor.
As the 2 Tim. passage. If you read it in the real context...the reason why He wrote that is because the women were being loud and disruptive in the church! They were talking during the "preaching" and being disorderly. That is why he wrote that.
@DAVERAVEdotNET@xanga - No female pedophiles? Obviously you're not keeping up with the news.
Its pretty clear. The Bible says in several places that women are not allowed to teach or have authority over men. It is not a sexist thing, nor is it a cultural thing. The man is the head of the woman. And the women who were not yet married were still to remain under the authority of their fathers.
For those who disagree, remember what the Apostle Paul said: "Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord." - 1 Corinthians 14:36 & 37.
This is not optional, people. Further, the body of Scripture supports this as well. It even extremely important reasons, although those reasons are largely rejected by our pro-feminist, anti-male, politically correct society.
The man is the head of the woman, as Christ is the head of the Church. It also states that women are more open to angelic influence than men. Additionally, and perhaps most importantly, it is because God creates things to be done in a certain order. Without which, or if it is altered, chaos and problems erupt. Which is exactly what we see today: Strife in relationships as women fight with men for dominance. This produces children who deep down, are insecure with their sexual identity; which results in gender confusion, perversion, anxiety, and violent tendancies as children are raised without clear and healthy examples of their gender, & the role they play in marriage and the family.
I'm so torn on this one. There are many incredible women who hold leadership positions in my church in things like purity classes, the women's retreat, etc and who participate in organizing events and missions trips and in singing on the worship team and in the finances. There are so many ways to be involved, and there were several women used in leadership positions in the Bible. But women cannot be ordained in Calvary Chapels. For the most part, my church upholds the 1 Timothy verse, though this doesn't mean that women sit there silent and oppressed either. I honestly don't know if I'd be comfortable with a woman pastor..or maybe it's more that I just can't imagine it (?), but if you honestly feel that God is calling you to be a pastor, then I can't argue with that. We can't really pretend to be certain of what God intended or wants. I really curious as to what people believe.There are arguments both ways. I truly believe that men should be the head of the household and of the church and that the women influence and accent the church, but that doesn't mean women can't be used in incredible ways. It'll be interesting to read the responses this post and the thread in the forum receive. In the end though, what matters is our faith in Christ, not small legalities such as this (not that this isn't something valid to think and pray about).
@Koolou@xanga - I believe wholeheartedly. If the scriptural is written for a specific cultural then we must see the whole scripture in light of our present-day culture--which would be absurd. Scripture was written for all people of all types in all eras. God makes many, many gender differences beginning in Genesis with Adam and Eve in the garden. I know most churches do not practice silence by women in the church meeting and women not leading men, but I believe there is biblical standing for this practice today.
My mother and I strongly believe that men have authority, women have influence. I believe women should be allowed to teach, but not make authoritative decisions in the church such as matters of finance, church activities, etc...
It's like a paralegal working for an attorney (man=attorney, women=paralegal) Paralegals prepare documents and such for the attorney, the attorney reviews them, and either signs, edits, or throws away the document.
I believe that's kinda how marriages and churches should be. Women don't understand. They think when they can't be "in charge", that it's oppressive. That's not what I mean. If a woman has the influence to sway a man's mind, it's just like the woman making the decision and the man being her voice.
@ohmylittlesoldierboy@xanga - I agree with you that women make wonderful leaders for women and children. And I believe it is vital that they participate in Church organization.
@a_defiantbeauty_2@xanga - I appologize, but I really don't understand what you are trying to say the way you have written your comment. Could you be a little more clear?
@melissa_loggains07@xanga - I'm pretty sure I agree with you. Any man who doesn't listen to and respect the opinions of his wife either doesn't love his wife, is a fool, or thinks his wife is.
However today, we have the opposite problem. Far too many women are trying to control and dominate men, any way they can. If not directly, then they try to do so behind the scenes with manipulation and deception.
For the most part, I agree with this. And I really don't have a problem with it. What I do have a problem with is men taking that to an extreme that is not sanctioned by the Bible. "Head of the wife" does not mean owner of the wife. I will never allow a man to "own" me or mistreat me because they twisted a verse into allowing me to become a slave to them.
Although I'm not Christian (sorry if those who usually read my comments already know), I don't mind a woman having a leadership role in a church. I feel that some take the Bible to too literally. Like in this case, if we were to follow Timothy's word, it would be a ridiculous claim and you would have cases of discrimination against gender. But, that's how I feel.
yu know if you think about alot of things pertainig to women in the bible has to do with us sumitting ourselves to the man and basically the man as all resposibilty to do the hard working jobs...so part of me doesn't think that women could be be church leaders, but from the ladies that i have seen in leadership( my mother and aunts being ministers) are as powerful as the men or even more than, i also beleive that God can use anyone and anything he wants to proclaom his glory, and if women didnt lead half of the time or go to church period, then there woudl be no church because we are the monrity, which in a way is sad we need more men praising God....
@Koolou@xanga - I edited it, does that help? Basically, I am agreeing with you!
Our salvation history is saturated with male/female imagery, images of childbearing, and images of marital love. If the Church is the Bride of Christ, and Christ chose men as apostles to care for His Bride in his earthly absence, then it makes sense to me that men should continue to hold the authority.
yes my church has many female leaders and pastors
i feel it wrong for people to saay that~
and yes i do believe that vrse was more about etiquette seeing that in context it talks about your tongue being a rutter and such
@Koolou@xanga - I agree. Scripture shouldn't be maniuplated to fit "cultural" arguments. That's just a way to shift the moral baseline.
It's pretty clear in the scripture that homosexuality is a sin and should be recognized as one, but in our culture as well as in the ancient Greek culture, it was viewed or made to be viewed as normal by homosexual rhetoric and manipulations to become perceived as normal. Should we then embrace it and call it okay and not a sin when clearly the Lord thinks it is a sin?
No. The cultural argument is just another insidious smoke screen argument. People and peoples' sin haven't changed only technological sophistication. God and the Word of God is immutable. We can't pick and choose things to believe or not believe like Thomas Jefferson. In this existence (we are not on the other side yet where it doesn't matter) women and men have equal but different duties to perform in the home and at church.
@melissa_loggains07@xanga - hear! hear! And the demands of "feminist equality" are just another brand of rebellion not against men, but God.
@passion8e23@xanga - True. So true. But if that's the case women aren't the minorty, men are. They're not taking the responsibility that they should--that's part and parcel of Adam's fall and sin. He didn't take the responsibility he was given.
@Amarisa@xanga - Amen. But for the record, I completely agree that men should not take this authority for granted, or abuse it. To do so is at their own peril. We will all be judged and held accountable for our actions...and inactions.
@Palamides@xanga - You're right. But this still doesn't justify women trying to usurp men's authority either. And as I said, so many men really don't have good examples of how to be a healthy, let alone godly and confidently masculine man, husband and father who genuinely loves and appreciates his wife.
i fully supportive of woman taking up strong roles in ministry as far as being angels of the house or rather shepards of their flock... i dont think its fair to limit what God's places upon the heart of a male or female...
well... i think the context of the New Testament heirarchy of church government is quite clear on the basis of women taking on teaching roles as pastors/bishops... it is not to be condoned or accepted... which is a spit in the face for the egalitarian/feminist movement for which I make no apologies for what Scripture dictates...
now mind you... I as a guy will listen to a Bible teacher who's doctrine is right on and yet is a woman (Beth Moore is a woman leader i will listen to all ears open, she's amazing)... because she is older, and I just find her so cool... saw her live 2 times and both times were the best messages i've ever had to listen to and never needed to hear so bad... she's like the mom I never had... but more or less... above and beyond her, nope...
Now mind you... women ministry leaders like the nursery leaders or young children's ministries I think can have women just so long as it is filtered through their husbands or the pastor... apart from that... women taking on Pastoral roles as dictated by Paul about the heirarchy of church leadership is in direct violation of the NT and should be thus abandoned...
but more than anything and I'm coming to grips with this concept more and more is that the church needs dudes... bonafide, kick you in the balls, innovative dudes... dudes in their 20s who are demographically the least churched slice of the pie out there because church has been mainly a chick-a-fied institution w/ the seafoam green walls and it's to the point where because of this, we got a lot of chick-a-fied guys out there... now i'm glad that 60% of Christians are the women... but battles were fought by men who innovated and went out and got dirty... same too I think... we need less chick-a-fied guys and more ballsy guys out there...
youtube mark driscoll and voddie baucham... garauntee you you will get mad at these guys if you're an egalitarian/feminist...
@passion8e23@xanga - I agree. God can use women to proclaim the Word, but this is meant to be the exception, not the rule.
Unfortunately, I believe far too many women today use that as an excuse to justify attaining power.
The sad thing is, sometimes I really can't blame them. Some women are wonderful teachers. I still believe they should teach women and children, but I listen to them sometimes. And yet, even in many of those women, the yeast of feminism and anti-male sentiment has affected their teachings.