Tuesday, August 12, 2008
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Can You Be a Christian and Not Believe in the Bible?
from kristenmomof3
I have been reading stuff on Revelife recently. I've noticed a big problem, and I am not talking about all the non-Christians who like to use the forum to disagree with the Christians. I am talking about the people who call themselves Christians and comment on there and defend stuff the Bible talks about as sins, all because they do not believe the Bible is the Holy Word of God.I do not understand. Can you really be (or call yourself) a Christian and not believe the Bible?
To undermine, discredit and reject the Bible is to undermine, discredit and reject Christianity.
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. - 2 Timothy 3:16-17 KJV
It was written over 1600 years, over 60 generations, by more than 40 authors, on three different continents, in different circumstances and places, in different times, different moods, in three languages, concerning scores of controversial subjects, but it speaks with one united voice.
There are at least 332 distinct Old Testament predictions regarding the Messiah, all of which Jesus fulfilled perfectly (such as His birth in Bethlehem, His emergence from Egypt, His healing of the sick, His death on the cross, and so forth). Collectively, the combination of this evidence together is absolutely overwhelming.
Peter Stoner wrote a book called Science Speaks (Moody Press, 1963), that applies the science of probability to the prophesies of Jesus.
First, Stoner looks at just eight of the prophecies and considers the probability of just these being fulfilled by one man. (from Evidence That Demands A Verdict… pg.174-176)
1) Being born in Bethlehem (Mic.5:2)
2) Preceded by a messenger (Is.40:3)
3) Entering Jerusalem on a donkey (Zec 9:9)
4) Betrayed by a friend (Ps.41:9)
5) Sold for 30 pieces of silver (Zec 11:12)
6) Money thrown in the temple, buying a potter's field (Zech 11:13)
7) Dumb before accusers (Is.53:7)
8) Hands and feet pierced, crucified with thieves (Ps.22:16; Is.53:12)
Stoner concludes that the odds of any man that might have lived down to the present time fulfilling all eight of these prophecies are 1 in 10 to the 17th power. That's a one with seventeen zeroes after it!
But keep in mind, that's with only EIGHT of the prophecies! Don’t forget that there were over 300 prophecies concerning JesusTo reject the Bible is to reject the God of the Bible. To reject God is to reject the Commandments of God. To reject the Commandments of God is to reject the authority of heaven. To reject the authority of heaven is to accept the anarchy of hell.
What are your beliefs about the nature of the Bible?
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Comments (467)
here's my quote that I stick by as the answer to anyone who asks me if I really believe the Bible to be from God....
I choose to believe the Bible because it's a reliable collection of historical documents written by eyewitnesses in the lifetime of other eyewitnesses that report supernatural events that occured in fulfillment of specific prophecies which support the claim of it being divine rather than human in origin...
oh... and for a little more gravy... I tried it and it worked for me...
Sorry, but writing down that prophecies were fulfilled decades or centuries after the fact does not make them fulfilled. I mean the prophecies in Harry Potter were fulfilled too. That a series of texts of one religion agree with each other is not remotely evidence. And you misuse statistics. The odds that your parents would have sex on the exact day they did to conceive you are probably more remote. Therefore you don't exist, right?
Statistics are irrelevant, the logic behind them is what matters. The logic behind your statistics is not very good.
Also the bible doesn't speak with "one unified voice", google "biblical contradictions" sometime.
Of course there are Christians who don't believe in the Bible...They're really cool. They ride unicorns, hang out with Santa and the Easter Bunny. Like you know anything!
to deny parts of the bible is to simply turn the truth into what you want it to look like.
Believing in the lessons in the Bible is key yes. But some things just don't apply to this day and age and being a Christian is but one strata that people are a part of; though we try not to think it does societal pressure also influences people and their reactions to certain aspects of the Bible.
And also, please don't act like non-Christians who post here are only here to mock Christians. I'm a Buddhist (which you see as atheist) and I'm not here to mock Christians. I'm here to gain understanding about the things I do not understand as well as correct misconceptions about non-Christians.
This would have seemed like a stupid question to me not long ago, but I've seen the same thing. People who argue that the context of how something was written negates the "sinfulness" of the sin being discussed. There are certain passages- those dealing with sacrifice, festivals, and punishment for sin- in Leviticus that were fulfilled by Christ and no longer need to be adhered to, but even the final 10 chapters of that book are universal moral laws. Beyond that, I see very little in scripture that can be disregarded by someone who considers him/herself a Christian. I personally believe that the New testament would not hold the cloud it does if Jesus had not fulfilled Messianic prophecy dating all the way back to Genesis 3, but even those who make the mistake of trying to lump all of that into "the old covenant" cannot discred the New Testament and claim to be Christians. The word means "little Christ." If you're not trying to be like Christ, how can you take that name?
It is the Word of God, perfect, and infallible. Everything it says is true. And as the verse quoted says it is all given by inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
As for the moral codes, I think they apply just as well today as the day they were written. There are people who will of course mention clothing in Leviticus and such, but those were regarding the Levitical priests and not Gentile Christian believers.
Regarding the sins that people claim aren't sin now because of culture (homosexuality, adultery, lust, tax evasion, etc.) or regarding the role of women, it all applied then, and it all applies now. Trying to say otherwise is discrediting the Word.
@leadworshipper82 - If you're referring to the gospels, they are not eyewitness accounts. They aren't the gospels of matthew, mark, luke and john either, those names were tacked on decades or centuries later. They are in fact anonymous non-eyewitness accounts. If you read the gospels, this is extremely evident, as they give accounts of things the writers could not possibly have been privy to. There are two accounts of the death of judas - do you suppose he had an entorage of friends following him taking notes while he hung himself, and they just wrote "and then he hung himself". If the authors were eye witnesses it would be more like "then he got some rope and we asked what it was for, and he said he was going to kill himself, and we tried to take the rope away and..."
They are not eye witness accounts, they are the most popular versions of the story of the time. There are many more versions out there.
@agnophilo@xanga - Thank you.
The bible is God's law. If we do not obey it, or even read it, what is the point of calling ourselves Christians?
@Tom - This perfect infallable word of god orders the slaughter of homosexuals, witches and children, condones slavery and condones or instructs hundreds if not thousands of things you would instantly denounce as positively immoral if they were approved or prescribed by ANY other source.
@agnophilo@xanga - Biblical contradictions only exist in a surface reading of Scripture. I don't feel the need to refute every single claim of contradiction, so don't waste your time testing me in that, but try googling responses/refutation to any "Biblical contradiction" and you'll find just as many heremeneutical and theological dismissals of that contradiction as you did articles supporting it.
@Such_Were_You@xanga - Fun fact, the KJV refers to unicorns 9 times. It also refers to sorcerers, wizards, witches, necromancers etc many times, just to name a few.
@m1kyo@xanga - Welc you. : D
@shedinator@xanga - Your articles that support the Christian side of the argument are all based on theory while the articles refuting it are based on science. Faith doesn't require fact, hence why religion thrives.
@kimchikid@xanga - Go ahead and start killing gays and stoning adulterers then.
Wow... sometimes I can't believe how defensive people get on this site.
Anyways... I think that considering yourself a Christian, but not believing the Bible is a bit contradictory.
@m1kyo@xanga - Science can't prove or disprove God. It is unrelated, as science can only observe laws and thing with recurring and therefore testable results. God is outside of science. History is much closer related to God than science, and even history can't prove or disprove because it is based upon interpreted evidence.
@m1kyo@xanga - If you're discussing the Bible contradicting modern science, that's a completely different matter. Your original comment implied the Bible was self-contradicting. How does one go about scientifically proving that a literary text self-contradicts? There are no tests for contradictions in literature, there are interpretations and counter-interpretations, both of which are required to be based in theory.
@m1kyo@xanga - But you see, it may be part of God's law to do that, but nevertheless, The bible also tells us to obey the laws from our governments. Murder is a serious crime and although justified by religion is it not the best course of action. Jesus himself made an example when he saved the adulteress woman.
@Tom - I agree. Science provides the logical basis for various events, and gives an alternative explanation if people aren't so fond of the idea of God. Either way were stuck in an ever lasting circle of "this proves that" or "that disproves this," "i'm right you're wrong" sentiments. Only proves to cause destruction and chaos.
Personally it gives me a headache.
@shedinator@xanga - I think you're mistaking me with someone else? I never said that the Bible was self contradicting, though there are many instances where it is.
So I'll go ahead and assume the position.
Science doesn't prove a book contradicts itself; logic does.
Your argument is confusing so I'm not sure what you're saying in response to what I said.
@kimchikid@xanga - The Bible says many harsh things that cannot be applied to modern day life. To be honest, Christianity has had its barbaric tendencies which caused the wars. If people were to apply the Bible as it was in those times we'd never progress.
@m1kyo@xanga - you said "Your articles that support the Christian side of the argument are all based on theory while the articles refuting it are based on science. Faith doesn't require fact, hence why religion thrives."
The only thing I said about articles on here was in regard to agnophilo's statements that the Bible was self-contradicting. I assumed you had followed the thread and were taking a similar position. my apologies if that was not the case.
@m1kyo@xanga - Actually I disagree. The reason for wars is because they didn't follow Gods law. The fact that they rebelled from God is the reason for the war.
And when we have God, what is the point of progressing? We have exactly what we need, so why more?