Thursday, August 21, 2008
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Holy Spirit- Wind, Gentleman, God...
by miss poppy
Why is it that we hear so much about God the Father and Jesus and so comparatively little about the Holy Spirit? Is it because He is self-effacing? Difficult to understand?
I feel like sometimes it seems, totally incorrectly, like He's the less important member of the Trinity because He's overlooked in worship and sermons. I'm Pentecostal, meaning (among other things) that I believe in the experience, after salvation, of the infilling of the Holy Spirit with the initial physical evidence of speaking in tongues. Even with such an emphasis, I feel like I still don't know or understand as much about the Holy Spirit as I would like.
I have heard the Holy Spirit described as a gentleman, meaning He doesn't barge into our lives but waits for permission. I have experienced this. In the Bible He is described as a wind, who blows where He will. I have known this to be true in services where the agenda gets thrown out the window because God is moving. Jesus described the Holy Spirit as the Comforter. I experience this daily. Theologically, the Holy Spirit is the member of the Trinity who came to earth after the ascension of Jesus.
But how does all this shake down? I know that all three Persons of the Trinity have the same character. Add to the mix the fact that the members of the Trinity are all somehow within one another. It's amazing and mysterious in the best way.
Do you think our doctrine of the Holy Spirit is confusing? Do you think we hear less about Him than the other members of the Trinity?
Are there extra-biblical resources you would recommend that talk about this? What Scriptures have helped you to understand the Holy Spirit?
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Comments (39)
Run, do not walk, to your nearest Christian bookstore and pick up a copy of The Person and Work of the Holy Spirit by R. A. Torrey. (If they don't have it, which sadly is all too likely, you can buy it online.) This is beyond question the most understandable, sensible, illuminating, Bible-based, spirit-filled book I've ever read on the subject.
Some people describe books they like by saying "This will change your life." This book actually will change your life.
You can find several examples of Torrey's writing, including some selections from the abovementioned book, at this site. Well worth your time, if I may say so.
Holy Spirit and Me, Pt. 1 Rich Cathers Text
Holy Spirit and Me, Pt. 2 Rich Cathers Text
Holy Spirit and Me, Pt. 3 Rich Cathers Text
Holy Spirit and Me, Pt. 4 Rich Cathers Text
Holy Spirit and Me, Pt. 5 Rich Cathers Text
Holy Spirit and Me, Pt. 6 Rich Cathers Text
Holy Spirit and Me, Pt. 7 Rich Cathers Text
Holy Spirit and Me, Pt. 8 Rich Cathers Text
Holy Spirit and Me, Pt. 9 Rich Cathers Text
John 16:13-14
13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14
He shall glorify me.(Jesus)
I have been pondering this very thing the past couple of weeks... We have been attending a church this past year that that has opened my eyes to the role/person of the Holy Spirit. It has been so cool to hear this teaching and see how it has changed my life.
The two other churches I've attended in my life have been largely silent about the Holy Spirit. I feel like I've missed out all these years.... but I'm catching up rapidly!
Wow, I really questioned the role of the Holy Spirit for the past year. I think I am finally coming to some conclusions though. I think I am starting to believe that when I choose to do good because I know Christ wants me to, even when I don't feel like it (or even when I do feel like it), or even when God seems distant, that is the Holy Spirit working in me. I am "operating in the Spirit". I think being filled with the Spirit is a command, not necessarily something that happens to us. I think being filled with the Spirit means to persevere in doing good at all times regardless of feelings. I also think there is a very clear difference between being baptized in the Spirit and being filled with the Spirit.
I also think the Holy Spirit is the one who opens our eyes to the gospel and our need of it. He also opens our eyes to the Word, so that even when we doubt, He gives us faith to still know the Bible is Truth.
I grew up in a Baptist home, but in an Assembly of God school. Now I'm starting to look into reformed theology. It's been interesting, but I am definitely learning a lot.
I consider myself to be Pentecostal as well. You should come visit our services becasue the Holy Ghost always shows up and shows out. I would describe Him as "The God in me". He leads me and guides me into all truth and righteousness. He is the voice that speaks to me and let me know what God the Father would like me to know (even though I belive that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all one and collectively their name is Jesus)
Romans 8:26 is my favorite scripture about the Holy Ghost. Basically, it says that He prays for us when we are unable to. Even though, He is divine he unceasingly prays for me.
I also like Acts 1:8 this scripture is a promise. It means (to me) that the Holy Spirt gives me the power to be a witness first and foremost. The speaking in tongues, being slain in the spirit and running around the church are just the extras but it is the POWER of the Holy Ghost that I treasure and needs the most in my life. He is the one that enables me to love my enemies, to live holy and do everything for the Lord that I do.
I haven't found any extra biblical resources but I'll look into that.
this is a great post. it's true, the Holy Spirit seems obscure at times. i don't know what to think of that part of the trinity. i think we should talk about Him more.
i think it's hard for humans to grasp the concept of the Holy Spirit because there is Jesus, who is a man, and God is the father, but the third part is just a spirit/ghost.
i don't think anybody has a clear picture in their mind of what they think He might look like.
Western conceptions of the Trinity are imbalanced because they are founded upon the heresy of the filioque which is an extraneous phrase inserted into the Creed by the pope.
When I was very young I thought the Holy Spirit was a female. I thought it unfair that Jesus was male and that God was mostly referred to as male so I thought it only natural that the Holy Spirit should be a girl.
Even now, when people talk about the Holy Spirit I still see "it" as being feminine.
Amen. Great post and I love many of the comments.
(I will agree to disagree w/ those of you that the Spirit's infilling
is always accompanied by the speaking of tongues. But I do heartily
agree with you that we cannot and should not neglect the work and
ministry of the Spirit.)
Much of the evangelical church is afraid of the Holy Spirit. But the
Spirit is our life. Romans 8: If we don't have the Spirit, we don't
belong to Christ.
People are afraid of the Spirit because of abuses, bad experiences and incorrect teachings.
In some charismatic/pentecostal churches (not all), Biblical teaching
is minimized and the Spirit is given central place, so many people are
skeptical and fearful.
We must always be discerning and continue to check things against
Scripture and our teaching must always be rooted in and derive from
Scripture. We don't just check our brains and theology at the door and
say the Spirit will teach us. First John 2:27 is talking about the Spirit giving us assurance of our salvation, that we are in Christ. Otherwise, why would the NT talk about teachers in the Body of Christ? The Spirit is to guide us into all truth, so what the Spirit is teaching must always line up with the truth of Scripture.
And, as @musterion99@xanga wrote, the Spirit of God is to glorify the Son of God. If the Spirit is getting all the attention, then that's a red flag that there's something awry.
The Bible says we have all we need in Christ (which is true) but yet in
Luke 11, Jesus tells us we should be asking for the Spirit and that the
Spirit is a good gift of our Father.
Jesus longed for the day He could send the Spirit to His children. He
said it was good/to our advantage that He was going away for then He
could send the Spirit to us.
When we neglect Jesus' gift, how do you think He feels?
We also see a constant hunger and thirst in Paul's writings. Why do we
see prayers for the Ephesians to be filled with all the fullness of
God? Why do we see Paul's prayer for Christ to dwell in their hearts by
faith? Why do we see commands to be filled with the Spirit? If we had
all we need upon conversion, why do we find these types of things in
letters to people who were already Christians?
Too many Biblical references to mention here...John 14-16. The Book of
Acts. Jesus' own life. OT prophecies. Romans 6-8. Pretty much the first
part of all the NT epistles: reminders of our position in Christ as
believers and the power we have as believers, the work of the Spirit in
our lives. (Then if you read the latter part of the epistles we find
commands to us to live a certain way because we are Christ's and we
have Christ's indwelling power.)
As for extra-Biblical resources: Get hold of Martyn Lloyd-Jones'
writings on the Holy Spirit such as "Joy Unspeakable," "The Sovereign
Spirit." ML-J was an orthodox teacher, not a charismatic/pentecostal
per se, but he saw how the evangelical church had jettisoned/neglected
the doctrine of the Holy Spirit. Yet he was very, very cautious and
discerning about the work of the Spirit, always checking things against
Scripture. For those of you out there who tend to be skeptical about
the charismatic/pentecostal movement, please, please read ML-J.
Or listen to his messages on "Christ in your heart" at:
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/living_grace/
(Check through the archives, the messages begin on June 1. You have to sign up to do so, but it's free.)
One of ML-J's points was that Jesus Himself was not able to enter
public ministry until He was filled with the Holy Spirit. What's that
about: why would the very Son of God need the filling of the Spirit of
God to minister? Also, the example that the disciples had to wait for
the coming of the Spirit until they could go and witness with boldness
and power.
Anyhow, the main thing is for us is to pray that God would teach about His Spirit, that we would not be led into error and would readily take hold of
all God has for us.
I do believe the Spirit gets little recognition... less credit than deserved for certain... However, I am skeptical of speaking in Tongues as physical evidence... I have not personally achieved this... I do not necessarily desire it. I have spoken to people who have done it who say it was nothing special... they spoke of it as if it was something they had to do at their church to fit in, so they learned to. Maybe they just became jaded, but I don't think so. I believe the emphasis removes the intimacy from the relationship with the spirit, especially since several of these people have lost their faith
I reccommend Arthur Pink's book "The Holy Spirit" a much needed read. The Holy Spirit is nowhere in scripture called a gentleman, nor do we find those attributes. The Holy Spirit regenerates a spiritually dead person, changing their desires so that they are able to choose Christ. He does not wait for this; "The wind moves where it wills, so also the Holy Spirit." The Holy Spirit acts as an agent of change, (not a gentleman) coming to a dead creature and making them alive. The Holy Spirit convicts of sin and righteousness, never does He ask first. The Holy Spirit is not dependent on the actions of man; rather man is dependent on the actions of the Holy Spirit.
First of all, could you please prove to me with Biblical scripture that there is a trinity. I myself am a Pentecostal and speaking in tongues with the Holy Ghost giving the utterance is a regular occurence at my own church. But the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all the One and the same. There is no trinity.
Also speaking in tongues in the Holy Ghost is mandatory to get into heaven. According to the Bible. Jesus said to be born again of the water AND of the Spirit. When in scripture do we first see people recieve the Holy Ghost? In the book of Acts chapter 2. How did they get the Holy Ghost and how did they know they had it? Well I'm sure you've all read it and know they spoke in tongues with the Spirit giving the utterance. They did not ad-lib and LEARN to do it.
@nita105 - Could you show me with scripture that speaking in tongues is only an "extra"? Because the book of Acts shows they spoke in tongues upon recieving the Spirit of Christ.
@Nailed92@xanga - There is no scripture that says that. I think I may not have clearly expressed myself in my comment above.
If anyone else thought that's what I meant by my post - Please forgive me.
Speaking in tongues is evidence of receiving the Holy Ghost (Acts 2:4). Shouting in chruch and allowing your body to do as the Spirit will are also evidences but the true purpose of the Holy Ghost is to lead us and guide us. The Holy Ghost gives us the power to live right.
@Nailed92@xanga - I'm sure I can't convince you of the Trinity. We'd be using the same Scriptures to prove opposite points.
I do believe that the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are all within one another. However, I also believe they are distinct persons.
How do you explain the verses in which Jesus prayed to His Father? Was He praying to Himself?
I was wondering: Are you part of the Jesus Only denomination? I've heard of it, but never met anyone else who was part of it.
@Kristenmomof3@xanga - This is very good. Thanks for the links.
@misspoppy - I believe (and my church preaches) that there is only One God, Jesus Christ who is the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost. Our church would be considered an Apostolic Pentecostal church that teaches the doctrine of the apostle's.
Jesus himself says in scripture that no one cometh unto the Father but by Christ. Also Jesus said that he who hath seen Me (Christ) has seen the Father. I just want you or anyone else to please show me where that Bible supports the trinity theology, because I have never seen it.
As Christians we strive to be more like Jesus right? Well Jesus' life is our example of how we should live right? Why did He have John baptize Him? He prayed to show us that He'll always be there no matter what kind of trouble. He asked His disciples "can you not stay up with Me for just one hour?" He was showing them, being an example, a leader. Plus this is the God of all we are talking about, He could very well pray to Himself, He can do what He pleases.
@nita105 - I'm sorry I was just mistaken by what you said in your previous comment.
@Nailed92@xanga -
You said: Also speaking in tongues in the Holy Ghost is mandatory to get into heaven.
Wow. I have never heard a comment like this before... I don't like to debate - I usually stay out of that kind of thing. But to be honest, this comment makes me cringe...
Didn't Jesus say that whoever believes in Him will have eternal life?
@star_76@xanga - Yes Jesus said that didn't He? So to belive in Him is to follow what He says right? Faith without works is dead. Jesus also said you cannot enter in the kingdom unless you are born again of the water and of the Spirit.
How much of what you are sharing, is yours, and not just what you've been taught? I'm not going to argue, because that's not who I want to be. I would encourage you though, to extend grace to others as you share your ideas.
I have had several shattering and life-defining moments. Because of these things, I had to build my faith from square one. I know the things I believe about my loving Heavenly Father now, at 32, are mine... and no one can take them away from me.
@star_76@xanga - I do not want to argue. But I do want to see where the idea of a trinity is coming from. It doesn't make sense to me as I see too many scripture on One God. Eph. 4:5-6 is just one of many. Please don't think I want to argue, and I respect your experiences with serving the Lord. But I am wanting to know where in the Bible (which so far no one has given me scripture) does it show there's a trinity.
What I've written I have experienced for myself. I have spoken in tongues. I do speak in tongues. I have the Holy Ghost living inside of me. No one can convince me otherwise. I've been raised in a Christian home so I have been taught this and it has all been proven with Bible scripture. I will not believe any other doctrine or theology that is not inside the Word of God. Man's ideas are not stable or trustworthy.
I encourage everyone on here to get as much of God and His Word as they can. None of us are perfect, but we can strive to be. He did promise us a reward for following His commandments and teachings.
I find it extremely interesting... to reject the Trinity is to reject the classic and most basic teaching of Christianity, it is heresy and not a part of the true gospel. Any church that does not believe in the trinity, unfortunately has become apostate.
1) There is one God: Deuteronomy 6:4; 1 Corinthians 8:4; Galatians 3:20; 1 Timothy 2:5.
2) The Trinity consists of three Persons: Genesis 1:1; 1:26; 3:22; 11:7; Isaiah 6:8; 48:16; 61:1; Matthew 3:16-17; Matt 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14. In the passages in the Old Testament, a knowledge of Hebrew is helpful. In Genesis 1:1, the plural noun "Elohim" is used. In Genesis 1:26; 3:22; 11:7 and Isaiah 6:8, the plural pronoun for "us" is used. That "Elohim" and "us" refer to more than two is WITHOUT question. In English, you only have two forms, singular and plural. In Hebrew, you have three forms: singular, dual, and plural. Dual is for two ONLY. In Hebrew, the dual form is used for things that come in pairs like eyes, ears, and hands. The word "Elohim" and the pronoun "us" are plural forms - definitely more than two - and must be referring to three or more (Father, Son, Holy Spirit).
In Isaiah 48:16 and 61:1, the Son is speaking while making reference to the Father and the Holy Spirit. Compare Isaiah 61:1 to Luke 4:14-19 to see that it is the Son speaking. Matthew 3:16-17 describes the event of Jesus' baptism. Seen in this is God the Holy Spirit descending on God the Son while God the Father proclaims His pleasure in the Son. Matthew 28:19 and 2 Corinthians 13:14 are examples of 3 distinct persons in the Trinity.
3) The members of the Trinity are distinguished one from another in various passages: In the Old Testament, "LORD" is distinguished from "Lord" (Genesis 19:24; Hosea 1:4). The "LORD" has a "Son" (Psalm 2:7, 12; Proverbs 30:2-4). Spirit is distinguished from the "LORD" (Numbers 27:18) and from "God" (Psalm 51:10-12). God the Son is distinguished from God the Father (Psalm 45:6-7; Hebrews 1:8-9). In the New Testament, John 14:16-17 is where Jesus speaks to the Father about sending a Helper, the Holy Spirit. This shows that Jesus did not consider Himself to be the Father or the Holy Spirit. Consider also all of the other times in the Gospels where Jesus speaks to the Father. Was He speaking to Himself? No. He spoke to another person in the Trinity - the Father.
4) Each member of the Trinity is God: The Father is God: John 6:27; Romans 1:7; 1 Peter 1:2. The Son is God: John 1:1, 14; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8; 1 John 5:20. The Holy Spirit is God: Acts 5:3-4; 1 Corinthians 3:16 (The One who indwells is the Holy Spirit - Romans 8:9; John 14:16-17; Acts 2:1-4).
5) The subordination within the Trinity: Scripture shows that the Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Father and the Son, and the Son is subordinate to the Father. This is an internal relationship, and does not deny the deity of any person of the Trinity. This is simply an area which our finite minds cannot understand concerning the infinite God. Concerning the Son see: Luke 22:42; John 5:36; John 20:21; 1 John 4:14. Concerning the Holy Spirit see: John 14:16; 14:26; 15:26; 16:7 and especially John 16:13-14.
6) The tasks of the individual members of the Trinity: The Father is the ultimate source or cause of: 1) the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; Revelation 4:11); 2) divine revelation (Revelation 1:1); 3) salvation (John 3:16-17); and 4) Jesus' human works (John 5:17; 14:10). The Father INITIATES all of these things.
The Son is the agent through whom the Father does the following works: 1) the creation and maintenance of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17); 2) divine revelation (John 1:1; Matthew 11:27; John 16:12-15; Revelation 1:1); and 3) salvation (2 Corinthians 5:19; Matthew 1:21; John 4:42). The Father does all these things through the Son, who functions as His agent.
The Holy Spirit is the means by whom the Father does the following works: 1) creation and maintenance of the universe (Genesis 1:2; Job 26:13; Psalm 104:30); 2) divine revelation (John 16:12-15; Ephesians 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21); 3) salvation (John 3:6; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:2); and 4) Jesus' works (Isaiah 61:1; Acts 10:38). Thus the Father does all these things by the power of the Holy Spirit.