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miss poppyAnother basic concept of Christianity that many seem to have missed can be expressed as a logical syllogism:
1. Humans desire happiness and pleasure.
2. God's being is the source of all happiness and pleasure.
3. Therefore, it makes perfect sense to pursue God wholeheartedly.
John Piper calls this concept Christian hedonism, and his main statement is, "God is most glorified in me when I am most satisfied in Him."
Why is it that we so often attribute undesirable qualities to God, but we also recognize that He commands us to desire Him?
This won't work. Humans are not wired to want someone who harms them or treats them badly. We are wired to desire those who are desirable to us in some way. God made us. It would have been ridiculous for Him to command us to do something that can't be done.
Instead, "We love because he first loved us." 1 John 4:19
I think I know a lot of people who wish they desired God and feel very guilty because they can't seem to want Him as much as they feel they should. I have done this as well. The truth is, though, that when we have a real encounter with the heartbreakingly attractive Person of God, we cannot help but desire Him. When we are touched by God's love, mercy, beauty, tenderness, justice, comfort, glory, majesty, and intimacy, it becomes inconceivable for us not to desire Him (though our feelings will always wax and wane).
I suppose what I am trying to say is that if an object is desirable to us, we will desire it automatically. If it is not desirable to us, we won't desire it. Desire cannot be manufactured.
When people pray, "God, help me to want You more," I think they often actually mean, "God, I think you're mad at me, and your holiness makes me too scared to approach you. I feel really yucky when I pray to you. However, the Bible says I should love You and want to be with You. If I was more spiritual, maybe I would want You even though You're not nice to be around. Help me to get there so You won't need to smite me."
However, I believe the actual heart of "God, help me to want You more," should be this: "God, I notice that I'm not desiring You. That means I must not be seeing You for who You really are-the most delightful Person I could ever choose to be with in the whole universe. Show me your delightful character so that I will fall more in love with You and my heart will hunger for Your presence."
I also think this issue offers clues to the way God feels about us. If we wonder whether we have value in God's sight, we can easily find an answer in the fact that He desires us. God is a Person, and people simply don't desire that which they find undesirable; that would violate the logical law of noncontradiction. If God wants us, He must see something desirable, something He values, in us.
I am often burdened for those, both saved and unsaved, who have yet to know the incomparable and indescribable experience of God's tangible, loving presence. Knowing Him begets desire because He is the epitome of all that is desirable. It's not enough to have head knowledge of this. Deep beliefs of the heart are what determine whether or not we see God as desirable. If we don't, we can be sure that the root is our flawed concept of a perfectly desirable God, and He longs to replace that faulty image with Himself.
Do you ever feel like you don't really see God for all He is? Or ever feel like He's mad or displeased with you?
Comments (84)
i KNOW i don't always see or value Him for all that He is.
i like that you pointed out that the relationship waxes & wanes. human relationships do, too. i think if we would face this as a fact our relationships would improve...both with God, and with those around us.
i don't always FEEL like being "in love" with my husband. i know he feels the same way. but because we have made a commitement to each other, we hold tight till we cycle around to love again.
it's the same with our relationship with God. but as time passes, and i get to know Him & His ways better, those times lessen.
because of the way i view both God and desire, i don't think desiring God in the same sense i desire other things makes any sense. most pleasure i get from life derives from the physical... sex, sleep, food, feeling the sun on my skin, exercising, getting a nice massage, etc. God can do none of those things. and frankly, i don't want Him to. like everyone else, my faith serves a purpose in my life. i see no reason to try to expand it.
and please don't say you pity me..... my relationship with God is quite wonderful because i have learned exactly where His place in my life is.
that's the beauty of Grace now isn't it???
that grace is the covering which allows our frailty and our lack of desire makes up for the lack in which we so fail to express...
that i think is the tension between humanity and divinity...
again which makes Grace so amazing
@too_pretty_to_die@xanga - One thing is very true. God will never give us more of Himself than we want.
I believe God wants to be our whole life, not just a part of it. However, He will never, ever take control without our consent.
As a person who is extremely physical, I do experience God that way.
I also believe God gave us physical pleasures (like you mentioned) for us to enjoy.
"God, I think you're mad at me, and your holiness makes me too scared to approach you. I feel really yucky when I pray to you. However, the Bible says I should love You and want to be with You. If I was more spiritual, maybe I would want You even though You're not nice to be around. Help me to get there so You won't need to smite me."
That was me for the last few years. I had always felt so close to God, thought nothing to strike up random conversations at any time -- we were buddies. Then, for some reason I can't even recall (which is a memory lapse I think *cough*Someone*cough* had something to do with), I started feeling immensely guilty and extremely unworthy of God's love and time. I couldn't pray anymore. On top of the general crummy feelings I was having, I felt even worse trying to get His ear. Who was I, unworthy little lamb, trying to taking Him away from the worthy flock? Why make Him angrier with me by interrupting His busy schedule to listen to horrible, little me? I was spiritually miserable.
And then one day, it all came to a head. I felt too guilty talking to Him, so I started chanting to myself: I will get over this. These feelings are wrong. He loves me unconditionally. I'm doing this to myself. After a few run-throughs, my ears laid upon someone's radio playing John Mayer's Say. I had never heard the song before (and, oddly enough, I have yet to hear it on the radio since. Altho I mostly just listen to the radio in the car) and the words just washed over me and I broke down. All the negative feelings just disappeared. I was crying, but it wasn't an upset crying. It was the most joyous cry I've ever had. And then it was like this voice was calling out to me, "Are you better now? Do you see? I missed you." To which, I proceeded to make up for lost time and chewed His ear off. lol!
And that's my little story.
For me, my best understanding of God's desire for me (and all others) came from becoming a parent. As I invested myself in my child without holding back anything I thought he should have that was good for him, I began to desire more of a relationship with him. Not necessarily as a "return due me" for my effort; but because I had made sacrifices based on some things I had hoped would result for that sacrifice.
So, I have a selfish desire to see how his life unfolds where I had influence, sure. But there are other reasons that I feel connected to my sons in ways I don't to my nieces and nephews who are also my godchildren. It's partly that I was more responsible for them.
Is that how God feels His connection toward me? I don't know, but I suspect that it has to be much bigger than that, cause He's GOD. I'm just saying that when I became a parent, many qualities of being a caring loving parent became more evident and powerful to me, where they weren't before. I have come to sense that my unconditional love for my sons is only a minuscule fraction of the love God has for me, and that is a bit breathtaking when I think of it. It also renders the ferocious frightening visage of God less aimed at me, and therefore less repulsive or expulsive.
@mentally_ill_hil@xanga - That's a great testimony! Thanks for telling it. I've been there myself, and it so wonderful on the other side. I have a tendency to go back there regularly if I'm not careful.
funny i was just discussing this with my friend a few hours ago! sometimes it's very hard for me to see God as a loving, caring person who wants to bless me when i'm walking with him. i don't know why, but that is just not the first image i get of God. but i'm believing it more and more and working on LIVING it out.
@misspoppy - i agree that those things come from God, but there's a difference between source and material. and either way, a true hedonist would be atheist (or at least agnostic), so that all things in life may be experienced as pleasure, without any restrictions placed on the individual. the main issue with Christian hedonism is that it presupposes that pleasure is an experience derived directly from God. and while it doesn't take a genius to figure out what is pleasurable, the jury is still out on whether pleasure is a sign of God's approval. i can't say i feel pleasure from God... but i certainly feel contentment.
i'm not a fan of hedonism, mostly because of its close ties to egoism. and that's where God comes in. He is the little string around my finger, my reminder that not everything in life is supposed to be wonderful or pleasurable. God taught me the meaning of "everything in moderation", including religion and faith. i believe that, no matter how close one might be with God, most of what He expects from us in life is not pleasurable. otherwise, why label so many basic instincts as sinful?
There is no form of happiness or pleasure that is available to a devout believer which is unavailable to a non-believer.
@too_pretty_to_die@xanga - Hedonism is, I believe, the philosophy that the sole purpose of life on earth is to maximize pleasure and happiness and to avoid all possible pain. Any christian who adheres to their religion to go to heaven and avoid hell would be a hedonist.
I am an atheist, and I've forgone great pleasures to help others, and helped others at great personal expense - I am not a hedonist, nor are most atheists. There is a difference between being a hedonist and believing we should enjoy life and avoid suffering.
@agnophilo@xanga - Again we see the consistency!
@too_pretty_to_die@xanga - We have a fundamental disagreement, which is just fine. My experience of God is that He is indescribably pleasurable. His Being fills me with extreme pleasure. Of course, He can correct me or ask me to do something uncomfortable, but the focus of His relationship with me is comfort and love. The Bible says that God's presence is fullness of joy (Psalm 16:11).
My pleasure in Him and His glory in me can't be separated. I seek Him because I love Him. I can't help but get wild pleasure from seeking Him because His presence naturally fills me with pleasure and joy. That's what I was made for, to experience free joy and pleasure in Him forever. I used to think that God was the antithesis to my pleasure, but then He showed me that I was totally wrong and that instead, He is the real fulfillment of all of my desires for beauty and happiness and love and fulfillment. I experience each of those things directly from Him. I am content in Him, but I also have active enjoyment in Him. It's not self-centered; it's centered in Him. And that brings me the most joy and Him the most joy. He wants to be my greatest desire.
That doesn't mean I can't or don't enjoy the things He made for us on earth, but He Himself is my greatest joy.
Human instincts themselves are not sinful. It is when they are indulged in harmful ways that they become sinful.
Thanks for responding to me. I really appreciate it.
Another great post! I'm now convinced that you read John Piper.
Christian Hedonism, what an odd phrase. At first I found it to be selfish and just a silly, flawed theory of some guy who repeats himself too much. But day by day, I am continually seeing the reality and Biblical truth of Christian Hedonism.
God's grace, this enabling for incradible joy that he has blessed us with, is truly unfathomable!
@Pickwick12@xanga - Sounds like an insult when you say it.
Desiring God is not like the desire for a physical object. We should not expect to derive a feeling of joy as a reward. To desire God is to want God's will for us -- because of its rightness.
Terrible argument.
One thing does not lead on to another.
Religion sucks.
The end.
@agnophilo@xanga - i was not saying that all atheists are hedonists, i just think that it's impossible for a Christian to be a true hedonist because of the restrictions of the religion. at the very least, i don't believe a Christian can consider hedonism a good thing.
i am unaware of whether one particular faith (or lack thereof) is tied to hedonism. i'm also assuming that most Christians do not worship God solely to get into Heaven, but do so out of genuine love for Him.
@misspoppy - i would argue that it's not true hedonism, then. in the end, you're still placing God above pleasure. a true hedonist would say, "i'm going to do what feels good, regardless of God's will." now, you're making an assumption: pleasure is a sign of God's approval/acceptance/love. and from my experience, that has more to do with an individual seeking pleasure, rather than seeking to please God.
@too_pretty_to_die@xanga - I would hope that most christians don't think much about heaven and hell at all, as they are terrible reasons to be a good person. Those who do, however, could easily qualify as hedonists. Hedonism has no link to any religious belief or disbelief, so why do you associate it with atheism?
@agnophilo@xanga - i assume (since i've never been atheist) that an atheist's morality is based more on what has the potential to cause actual harm to individuals, not what God deems pure or sinful. from my perspective, many laws in Christianity are meant to make oneself worthy of being in God's presence. besides... one could argue that any action, no matter how good it feels, which harms someone else cannot bring true pleasure.
@agnophilo@xanga - It's meant cheerfully, not insultingly
@agnophilo@xanga - I agree! Trying to attain heaven and avoid hell are not good reasons to be a good person. (Maybe "hedonism" is not the best word because it does imply selfishness.) I think about heaven a lot, but that's because I can't wait to be there, face to face with God. My future is already secure based on what Jesus has done for me. My reason for morality, then, is not to get into heaven but to show love to God and to be the kind of person that I was intended to be.
I have to disagree, though, that nonbelievers can experience all the same pleasures as believers. Of course, they can feel the joy of helping someone in need, the warmth of human love, and the satisfaction of a good meal or music or sex. There is something so incredible, though, about knowing God's awesomeness, his love, and his consistent presence with you. It's not necessarily tangible, but it reaches the innermost part of you. Believers don't always feel it all the time, but they can depend on it being true.
@too_pretty_to_die@xanga - I guess you've never heard of sadism.
@Pickwick12@xanga - Nevertheless, I don't know why you keep "cheerfully" pointing out my consistency.
@goodnessgraceness@xanga - And I assure you non-believers can feel those sensations as well, they just invoke them through science, art, music and philosophy. Buddhists call that sensation nirvana and I've experienced it many times. Not to mention scientists can stimulate the brain with patterned EM fields and artificially induce religious experiences by mimicking the effects of mind-altering drugs like LSD. It's called an altered state, and there are many different types which can be brought about by many different things.