Wednesday, September 24, 2008
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Was it the Holy Spirit or the Devil? Coincidence or God?
by mrs violetAbout 18 months ago we went to a family camp with the church we were attending at the time. The camp happened to correspond with a Solemn Assembly which had been called on behalf of our nation, in which we were to interceded in heartfelt repentance for our Country. I was responsible for leading the prayer time the following day- Sunday.
On the Saturday we had all headed off to the beach for some R&R. We were having a sand sculpting competition, and before we left I had drawn the letter T to sculpt. We were all spelling out Australia on the beach and had free reign as to how to sculpt our letters.
I had felt very strongly that I was to sculpt the letter t as a cross, and around that cross I was to drape a snake. I had no human comprehension for why this was. As I did this I was stricken with the most incredible pain in my stomach, and back. It wasn't just the bending over pains of a woman who had not long had a baby, it was deep and sudden.In the end I had to stop sculpting my letter and a very worried husband escorted me back to the car. Many around me did not like the sculpture at all. Snakes are often associated in the church with the satanic, and being quite a prophetic church, I think there were a few gasps when people saw that I had draped a snake around a cross.
Needless to say I didn't win the competition. One woman suggested that maybe I needed some deliverance for some kind of 'spirit' left over from when my parents worked with the Australian Aborigines (as they have a rainbow serpent in their legends).
I began to not only feel sick because I was sick, but because now it was hinted I was channeling some kind of snake spirit.
I kicked myself spiritually over and over again for listening to whatever it was deep inside of me that suggested that be what I modeled. In fact that one event and several others caused me to go on to question a lot of things about my faith and my beliefs in the Holy Spirit. Maybe I wasn't saved, maybe I had some kind of demon, maybe I wasn't listening to the Holy Spirit at all. I entered quite a downward spiral of self doubt.
One lone voice at the time pulled me aside and told me how St. John Ambulance in Australia used a very similar symbol for healing and maybe because I was ill God was speaking to me. But to be honest he was one of those people that I never quite knew whether to believe or not and while I listened to what he said, the other people who spoke to me about it where in more influential positions in the church. I left that church the next year.
I have been really struggling for about a year now in trying to reconcile some of the "prophetic" things I have experienced over the years with God. This morning in church I am sitting there wondering if I am in the right place and feeling very alone and again questioning, questioning, questioning. As I was trying to pay attention to the message of hope that the preacher was delivering, I glanced over to where the altar was set up for communion.
There in the middle of the altar was a wooden sculpture a snake wrapped around the cross. And my mind went back to the Sunday School lessons I had sat in on the fortnight before.
Numbers 21: 8 The LORD said to Moses, "Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live." 9 So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, he lived.
and
John 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life
And all of a sudden I felt a real wave of hope wash over me. Maybe I was in the right place. Maybe I wasn't the devil's spawn, channeling snake spirits, maybe the Lord was speaking something very personal too me after all, something to do with my own healing and restoration that has slowly been occurring at the foot of His cross? Or maybe the Lord was saying something deeper about our Nation as Christians all over Australia were in deep intercession and repentance for our drought stricken land that weekend?
Do you believe God still works in this way today? Or do you think we just see what we want to see in such imagery?






Comments (34)
You're definitely not the "devil's spawn." I feel like anyone who knew their Bible at all would have realised that what you were sculpting wasn't anything satanic. Gah...ignorance is annoying....
well, here is the deal...listening to "signs" and trying to divine their meaning is just silly...if God means for you to know something, He'll make it pretty plain...and the devil does work with "feelings", so why open the door to that?...i'd say quit trying to overanalyse everything and have some maalox...
Channeling snake spirits??? That's just nuts. Christians aren't supposed to even believe in that stuff. That's very New Age-y. Why on earth would a true Christian even suggest that? If we belong to Him, we have nothing to fear. "Greater is He who is in me than he who is in the world."
I am so sorry that you were made to feel like
"Satan's spawn" by this "church."
I think we see what we want to see, but at least you were able to see both sides. Personally, I'm not that suspicious, but if the world or a nation needed intercession, I would ask, did a nation ever not need one? And it would always need one. I don't think a nation in a specific condition (good or bad) would ever need less prayer.
I think a snake around a staff is different from a snake around a cross. There are also different interpretations of the snake around a staff. I've heard it was from Moses, the other was from Aesclepius, a demi-god in Greek myth who was able to heal people. If I remember correctly, he held a staff with a snake around it. Anyway, it's sign used for hospitals today (though somewhat wrongly, but that's another story).
For 9 dollars and 95 cents plus shipping and handling I will send you holy water to cast out that devil. Act now I'll even include a holy water purifier with two extra filters. Call within the next ten minutes and Bubba dirt will send 1 ounce of bubba mud. Just rub in eyes and wash with holy water.
R and R in the middle of intercesion usually causes strange phenomenon.
Christians interceding in heart felt repentance all most does not make any sense. One cannot repent for the sins of another. But one can hold up the staff of healing. Maybe God was trying to point that out.
But I am open to a whole hearted, "I disagree".
@bubbadirt@xanga - haha. i liked your response. i agree with the not being able to repent for others too.
this is a tough one. the only thing i can think to say is to reassure you that i think you'll be okay even if you did misinterpret what you thought was from God (though i'm not sure if you did or not). listen, we're learning, growing Christians. we're not going to know what is right or from God everytime. we're going to be deceived sometimes. thankfully because of God's grace, even by our failures we get to know God even better. just the fact that you went through this and realized you needed to turn to God for answers and question yourself, shows that you want to know the truth..and you want to know God's voice and do what is right. so be encouraged about that.
it seems to me that putting a snake/serpent on something that resembles a cross might seem to most people as being counter-effective to glorifying God. and more like something satan would want to glorify himself. but i'm not sure if that is what was being done or not. it's possible that what you did was used as an example to teach people about some hypocrisy in the church...perhaps an example of how satan is corrupting some Christians or Christianity(?) maybe there were some serious problems that weren't being addressed in the church while at the same time people were putting on a public display of self-righteousness? i can't really say.
thanks for your post though. it takes a lot of courage to write about something like this and open yourself up to criticism and maybe even harsh comments.
my best advice would be to continue to lay your gifts and abilities at the cross. take everything you think about, do or say captive to Christ. ask yourself if what you are being asked to do is something that is going to give glory to God, does it go along with loving our neighbors, who gets the credit? pray about it and see if maybe God wants you to depend less on interpreting signs for a while and maybe focus on your relationship with Him. if you and your church didn't rely as much on their abilities, would God still feel the love? would others? because satan deceives people sometimes to focus so much on their gifts, talents and contributions that it becomes a source of false pride. it's all very impressive, but sometimes even impressive knowledge and signs are not from God.what is most important is not to lose what is truly important...knowing the heart of God, and doing His will by glorifying Him and loving others.
Love God unconditionally and pray for His help with discernment. i'm not saying you were wrong, but satan is the master deceiver. he can twist even scripture for his evil. and i have no doubt that there are a lot of people who seem to be able to do amazing things but those things do not always come from God.
i pray that God will use this experience for your good and His glory somehow. that even if you were deceived that you will know God better as a result of all of this.
Have you ever gone through travail? Have you ever given birth to a child? Birthing something, in the Spirit, can be like this. Travailing in the Spirit can be like this.
Perhaps God was setting you up as an intercessor, using your sand scultpure as the trigger point. I wonder what else was going on in your life, or at that meeting, before you did this.
I believe many people have a knee-jerk reaction to certain spiritual manifestations, primarily because their church either doesn't teach it, or teaches against it. But the cloud always moves, and you have to move with it. Maybe God is leading you into a deeper realm of His presence, or into a life of intercession.
I have seen much of this, and I can tell you that if your heart was pure, so was the experience. Do not be dissuaded from believing that God was moving on you in a new and living way. Our faith is a personal one, even in the midst of a corporate gathering.
What is wrong to one person, or several, doesn't mean it is necessarily wrong for you.
And let's be clear about one thing: just because a snake has been used in the past in an evil way, and some religions use them in bizarre rituals, doesn't mean it isn't created by God. God can use anything He wants to to get His message across.
I say it's time for you to talk to Him a bit more about it, opening up yourself to what appears to be the beginning of a new form of ministry and expression.
I have heard many incredible things, seen miracles firsthand, and I believe we are only scratching the surface when it comes to the moving of the Holy Spirit.
The real question will always be, what do you believe, thou woman of God?
I really don't think that it really is from God. I used to look into everything this way too, and I drove myself crazy! I was so worried that I was not in God's will! then I realized that if God wanted to tell me something, He would make it very very clear, He wouldn't just send little hints here and there. God spoke to Moses through a burning bush with an audible voice. There was no question of who it was from or what God wanted him to do.
@Strong_Protector@xanga - AMEN!!!! (If I could say it more strongly, I would)
I'll say this even stronger than the two of you: don't put God in a box. If He can speak through a donkey, when a prophet wouldn't listen, then He can speak through anything.
God speaks to me all the time, and never through an audible voice, unless it's the voice of someone next to me. Honestly, if you have hundreds of examples of God speaking to you and others from out of a burning bush, document them, and please send them to me.
I'm not saying God won't speak to me audibly, or that He can't. But I can't throw God's Word out the window because you think that every time He spoke in Bible times, it was in an audible voice or using a burning bush. There is no credible scripture to back your assertions up.
Were the prophets channeling God? Or did they speak as they were moved by the Holy Spirit? We are all flesh, and God uses us. That's why we have scripture to show us how to discern the prophetic word.
If the prophets were channeling God, there would be no need for interpretation, no need for discernment.
@hubbaduh@xanga - yup.... I am not sure how I missed those passages myself, I have read them so many times. I guess it goes to show that even though we read scripture it does often really need the Holy Spirit's revelation to understand it - spiritually.
I think I was just so stunned (and in pain) at the time, that I wasn't thinking very logically. Now the passages make complete sense too me.
@tialoca_talks@xanga - thanks for your advice.
@musicmom60@xanga - I would have to say I have seen people delivered of demonic spirits, so I have no problem with that type of belief. But that is a whole other blog.... ((((( hugs ))))
@Liike28@xanga - Me either, I think it is incredibly important to always hold our countries up to God in prayer, no time is any different from another. You can read more about it here ~~~~~ > CLICK
@bubbadirt@xanga - I agree that Christians can not repent on behalf of another. And I agree that the healing is quite another story.
Now about that Holy water????
@Strong_Protector@xanga - thanks for your advice..... I am however reminded of God's dealings with Elijah, sometimes he is not in the fire or the earthquake but in the gentle whisper....
I think I need to spend more time with God on this one.
@ThePathToYourDestiny@xanga - I agree, it is time I sought God more clearly on it. I am however trying very hard to take a balanced approach to these things. I know God has spoken to me in visions and dreams before... it is how I became saved (well the prompting for salvation- not the act of), yet I am also very aware that there is a lot out there that simply is not God (ie biblical God) and borders on the New Age.
Thank you for your input I will read it over again later when I have more time.
@mrsviolet - Good on ya, mate! (that's Australian, isn't it?)
It's how I got saved, too. Had a dream, the second one like it, in which God warned me to turn around or else.
So, yes, be encouraged! I'm pumped for you! It's a very weird but exciting time in your life. And God sometimes wants to see how far you will go, what you are willing to do, to hear Him.
And it is wise, as you may have seen here, to keep these moments to yourself, and share them with your trusted friends and leaders, those people in your life who are as open as you are, but more experienced. This format left you open for all kinds of comments, which is why I replied to the others who were responding after my comment.
@ThePathToYourDestiny@xanga - that was the essence of my dream as well... 'choose this day whom you will serve" I chose God.
I am ok with various opinions, it is good to know how the Body of Christ in general reacts to such things, it is a good way of having your finger on the pulse so to speak.
Your 'Strine' is very good.
@bubbadirt@xanga - I have a question for you about repentance. If someone cannot repent for the sins of others, what was Jesus doing on the cross?
It is a simple fact that people do not always accept His gift of forgiveness, and that through God's gift of free will no one will ever make them accept it - so in that sense acts of repentance could be considered "fruitless". But that does not change the fact that Christ's act of love on the cross was an act of repentance for all mankind.
The way I see it, even holding up the staff of healing is an act of repentance on behalf of another.
@Joplar@xanga - Learn to ease up a little there and take deep breaths. I wish I could give you a noogie and buy you a snow cone. Then we would be great friends.
But to answer your question. Jesus was not repenting for the sins of others. He was the sacrifice for the sins of others. Big diference.
When my little son threw a baseball threw the window of a neighbor lady. He had to repent. I had to fix it.
The fact that your impression checks out with the Bible, and very clearly too (I was thinking of that verse before you even quoted it-- of course it was fresh in my mind, as my small group at church was just studying John 3 last night!) indicates to me that it was genuinely from the Holy Spirit. The principle involved in discerning the Spirit's voice (as opposed to self-suggestion or demonic impressions) is always to go to the Word:
1John 4:1 "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world."
Isaiah 8:20 "To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."
The Holy Spirit will not contradict His own Book! However, as you realized, the image of the snake raised on the standard is entirely consistent with Scripture, and indeed with Jesus' own description of His saving work. So you were right and your friends were wrong.
I think you may be quite right that there is something about this Scriptural account that the Lord wants to teach you more clearly: I would take the time to study it in detail if I were you! (Somehow, I think the phrase "look and live" may be significant.)
If you're interested, there's an excellent article by R. A. Torrey entitled How God Guides.
God is eternal and unchanging. If he worked in a particular way back in Biblical days, then He most certainly can (and will) work in similar ways today. I, myself, have had prophetic dreams from time to time. I don't usually talk about them because people look at my funny. I really want to
talk to a pastor about it someday, but I keep moving and get nervous about going up to one about it.
@Pass_the_Aura@xanga - You know what I really love about it all? I didn't 'get it' all at once. I have been taken on quite a journey since it all happened, and I received the next piece of the puzzle just as I needed it most.
Going to book mark that site now.
@trebleclef402@xanga - It can be REALLY hard to open your mouth to speak about such things. I dream periodically. Usually it is about something the Lord wants to do in me- like deal with!! I am learning how and who to tell.
I posted this here, because partly I wanted accountability and secondly because I am really interested to hear how Christians respond to these things. Whether they agree or not it is really neat to see how people think and why.
I hope you get to share your dreams with somebody who can handle and understand that privileged.
i think is is a really interesting post. i don't know what this will mean to you, but in a great deal of early religious mythology, the snake was a symbol of eternity, rebirth, and regeneration. the ouroboros, the shedding of its skin...it is a very powerful, very common symbol in early cultures. i actually find it very interesting that the judeo-christian tradition vilifies the serpent in the story of genesis (and maybe in revelation? haven't studied it), turning what was a good symbol into one of evil and darkness. but then of course moses's snake is one of healing...haha, it just goes to show how certain symbols are so deeply embedded in the cultural imagination.
as for the other aspect of your post, i read in the first chapter of william james's varieties of religious experience that if one has an extraordinary spiritual experience, the ones sent from god might leave one feeling rejuvenated, refreshed, bursting with hope and expectation. the experiences that are not sanctioned by god may leave one feeling tired, drained, unhappy. at least, this was a puritan take on religious experiences. probably from the 1600s. so i don't know what it's worth to you, but i thought it was interesting.
@bubbadirt@xanga - Ok, thanks.
We do have pretty much the same view, it was just a question of terminology.
Originally the snake was a symbol of Christ (in the Old Testament, like with Moses, those who looked to and believed in Him) but Satan attempted to defame it.
@newbeginningschick@xanga - I would disagree with you on the point "snake was a symbol of Christ" because in genesis snake was the one who deceived Adam and Eve and represented satan
your post is very interesting, but I would argue that since we were called to worship in spirit and truth that we need to strive for a balance between solid understanding of the Bible and "experiences".
everything should glorify God
if your "experiences" points you to God and bring glory to His name than sure. However if it *distracts* you from the person of Christ, who He is, and what He said in the Bible, then I would really question the validity of those experiences.
Experiences should NOT be the basis of your faith.
Matt 7: 22-23
Many will say to me on that
day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name
drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'